Insider Secrets Podcast Episode #16

 Guest: Paul Moore

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Guest Bio:

Episode 16 guest Paul Moore

After a stint at Ford Motor Company, Paul co-founded a staffing firm where he was a finalist for Michigan Entrepreneur of the Year. After selling to a publicly traded firm, Paul began investing in real estate. He launched multiple investment and development companies, appeared on HGTV, and completed over 100 commercial and residential investments and exits. He has contributed to Fox Business and The Real Estate Guys Radio and is a regular contributor to BiggerPockets, producing regular live video and blog content regularly. Paul also co-hosted a wealth-building podcast called How to Lose Money and he’s been featured on over 200 podcasts. Paul is the author of The Perfect Investment – Create Enduring Wealth from the Historic Shift to Multifamily Housing as well as the forthcoming Storing Up Profits –Capitalize on America’s Obsession with Stuff by Investing in Self-Storage. Paul is the Founder and Managing Partner of Wellings Capital, a real estate private equity firm.


[00:00:00] Kristen: Welcome to this week’s edition of Insider Secrets. The show that turns multifamily investing into reality. Each show we interview guests who are seasoned professionals, actively closing and managing real estate deals. Your host Mike Morawski has more than 30 years of multifamily, real estate investing and property management expense.

Mike is the founder of My Core Intentions. And he’s been involved in over $285 million of transactions. Focuses on helping you create short term cashflow and long-term wealth. Here’s your host, Mike.

Mike: Hey welcome everybody. Good afternoon. It’s Mike again, your host of Insider Secrets and that’s brought to you by My Core Intentions. So let me ask you, I keep talking about this every week, but have you guys been thinking [00:01:00] about what your intentions are? Are you taking that five or 10 minutes in the morning when you get up and you start your day to get intentional about what your outcomes.

And what do you want to accomplish for yourself? And more importantly why are you trying to make those accomplishments? Whether it be business or personal, MCI invests in our client’s future through educational platforms, teaching how to create short-term wealth. I’m sorry. Short-term cashflow in long-term wealth, empowering our clients to execute sound real estate investing, principles and strategy.

Along with good property management and operational skills. You know what, and the key to that is while living a well-balanced lifestyle, a lot of times in this industry and in this business, we can get stretched and we can run in a bunch of different directions. But if we’re not trying to live that well-balanced lifestyle and really pay attention to the things that matter, maybe like family or a [00:02:00] relationship, those are the things that really matter.

But let’s get to today’s show how’s that. So I’m really excited about today’s show. I’m meeting with my friend and long time real estate investor. Paul Moore from Lynchburg, Virginia, Paul, after a stint at Ford motor company co-founded a staffing firm where he was the finalist for Michigan entrepreneur of the year, two years.

After selling a staffing firm to a publicly traded company, Paul began investing in real estate, founded multiple investment and development companies appeared on HGTV and eventually built and co managed a successful multi-family development. Paul co-hosts two podcasts, including the art of investing and high to lose.

I always loved that one, how to lose money. We don’t want to do that, but I’m sure that I’m there. He’s going to teach us a little bit about not ho how not to lose money. He’s also been a contributor on Fox business news and bigger pockets producing live video [00:03:00] and blog content on a weekly basis.

Paul’s the author of the perfect investment. Create enduring wealth from a historic shift to multifamily and storing up products. Capitalize on America’s obsession with stuff by investing in self storage. And that’s what we’re going to talk about today. Paul’s the managing director of three commercial real estate funds at Wellings capital.

And Paul. What I’d like you to do is say hi to our listeners and tell us in one word, what describes you and your investment

Paul: strategy. Hey everyone. It’s great to be here. Thanks for having me on Mike. It’s hard to summarize an investment strategy in one word, but I’ll do it. Yeah, no.

Mike: Huh? What do you mean by no?


Paul: Warren buffet said that successful people say no a lot. The very most successful people say no almost all the time. And so [00:04:00] my default for years of my life was yes. I’d love to invest in that. I had a big FOMO fear of missing out thing through my twenties and thirties and into my forties. And I found myself chasing shiny objects.

I found I wasn’t really an investor. Mike. I was a speculator. Now investing is when your principles generally safe and you’ve got a chance to make a return. And speculating is when your principal is not at all. And you’ve got a chance to make a return. And I found myself speculating far more than investing and it hurt me a lot, but I’ve been following some different principles now and I’m learning to say no as our default.

And it’s really hard.

Mike: That’s interesting, it’s funny you bring Warren buffet up, right? Because I remember years ago, he S he said, I will never get in the real estate business. And today he is really [00:05:00] involved in the real estate business. And, I think it’s interesting, you say no and his no shifted at a period of time.

Have you ever found that in your own life where you’re no, maybe shifts somewhere down the road or change of strategy of some.

Paul: Absolutely. I was investing in multifamily and I had made a commitment to my wife after writing the book, the perfect investment. So I’m not going to chase any more shiny objects.

I’m not going to do anything outside of multifamily. So I said no. For a long time, but then found myself for reasons I could get into later expanding into self storage and mobile home parks as well.

Mike: Yeah. Interesting. I know I covered a little bit of your background, but why don’t you, can you go into a little bit more detail for us about your backstory, Paul and how you wound up in, in reality?

Paul: Yeah. So I was a, I got an engineering degree and then an MBA. And then I went to Ford motor company and I found myself always tinkering in [00:06:00] evenings and weekends looking for some entrepreneurial venture. And I realized that I guess I was an entrepreneur at heart because I started with a partner.

We started a number of things that didn’t go anywhere. But then we started a staffing firm that really took off. After five years of that we sold. To a publicly traded firm. And I’d never heard the term flipping. I don’t think that house flipping word was out there in 2000, but in 2000 started buying houses on the courthouse steps and turning them around.

We called them fixer uppers and selling those. And that’s how I got into real estate. I went from there to flipping waterfront law. To doing a small subdivision to do an online marketing firm for real estate leads. And it was always trying to figure out how to get into commercial. But I didn’t know how, I didn’t know where to start, who to trust, where were the on ramps and, syndication wasn’t nearly as popular as it is now.

And so what happened is in [00:07:00] 2010, my buddy and I talk about chasing shiny objects. We invested in an oil and gas deal in North Dakota. Found that there were pickup trucks lining the sides of the roads and in Walmart parking lots and everywhere with men sleeping at night because they were oil workers without housing.

And so we ended up building a very nice multi-family facility, very quickly using modular construction. And we owned and operated that for a number of years. And that was my entree into multifamily and commercial.

Mike: Interesting. I’m going to throw a curve ball at you here. Can you think of your most interesting, most abstract flipped deal or something that just crazy when funny on you or bring some.

Paul: Yeah, I can tell you a couple of the worst deals I ever did were mobile homes. And it’s funny. I want to be in mobile home parks now, which is quite different. One, the first [00:08:00] flip deal we ever did. We intentionally went without any money at all to the courthouse steps, because our goal was just to see how the process worked.

So we showed up there on an icy day, December of 20 of 2000. And we were the only people there on the courthouse steps and the auctioneer came there was like I said, an or two, a snow and some ice. And we had already went, walked around the house. We peeked in the windows cause it was obviously empty.

And we decided it was worth about 65,000. We said we didn’t know what we were talking about, but we said, if anybody gets us for under 50, it’s going to be a great deal. And so the opening bid was 34,000 or less. And so we were the only people there and we were so disappointed that we hadn’t brought money.

We thought this would be a slam dunk. It looks like there’s nothing wrong with the house at all, from what we can see. So we begged her to go get lunch. And so we could [00:09:00] run to the bank and get a cashier’s check for, I think it was 3,400, 10% down and she agreed, never seen that happen before or since, or at least not since I hadn’t done it before, but at any rate we were able to get that house.

We, I think we just painted one room and swept it out and put it for sale by owner sign in the yard. And within three and a half hours, we had a full price offer at 65,000. Wow. That was the good news. And I thought, wow, we could do one a week, make 30,000. You know what I mean? So that was the good news.

The bad news was about three months, two months into the closing process. The seller admitted to us that she couldn’t sell her mobile home near Washington DC. And she asked if we could take it in trade. My partner was smart enough to say no, but my phone low kicked in. And I said, yeah, I took that mobile home in trade and it was one disastrous tenant after another, until I finally had it hauled away for [00:10:00] scrap.

But I learned my lesson. Let me tell you, yeah,

Mike: interesting. So I know we want to talk a little bit about self storage today and it seems like your transition has gone from that residential fix and flip to multifamily, and then from multifamily on to self-serve. How did that transition happen?

Paul: Yeah the multifamily came as a result of, operating the multifamily that we developed in North Dakota and ended up writing a book in the middle of that. But what we found Mike was that multifamily is significantly overheat. And I think the first break we’ve seen in that is as a result of COVID the last five months.

But honestly we just I became very conservative when I lost money on a number of deals over the years, and I just really had a complete shift to where I was just not willing to overpay for deals. We, our company Wellings capital didn’t have a good acquisition. And so [00:11:00] we were generally looking only at deals that were on market through brokers.

So we found that everything was overpriced. We didn’t want to pay too much. We didn’t want to subject our families and our investors to. Costs, of overpaying. And so we just said no continually. And after literally years of this, we bought one multifamily asset over the years, we said we can’t make a living like this.

So we looked outside at self storage and mobile home parks. We were thrilled, pleasantly surprised as an understatement. We were thrilled to see the number of. Mom and pop operators who were selling their properties and who had, you could pay a fair price to not even a low price, but a fair price to and they were leaving tremendous amount of upside for a great operator.

So that’s how we decide to get into these asset class. So

Mike: when you talk about that mom and pop operator, was that in a specific market or region or was it [00:12:00] just nationally across the board? You’re finding

Paul: those about 40 of the 44,000 or so mobile home parks in the U S are operated by individual operators.

A lot of them are older, just mom and pops, self storage about 76% of some, the 53,000 self storage facilities in the U S. Owned and operated by independent operators, perhaps half or more of those are mom and pops. And it’s really, it’s not that hard to find a self storage facility that has a remote.

Or maybe they’re just barely doing enough to get by. They’re considering it a passive investment when it’s really an active, it’s a retail type investment it’s retail and real estate combined. And so it’s not something you can just really maximize through operating passively. And so we find those all over the county.

Mike: It’s interesting. I always said that I liked self storage because you have rentals. It’s like multifamily, [00:13:00] except you don’t get the calls about plugged up toilets and furnaces being out. And the other piece is that if somebody doesn’t pay their rent, you lock their unit and if they don’t pay it, you auction it and get your money.

Paul: It’s very different eviction process from multifamily.

Mike: Yeah, so it, it always seemed like it would be a little bit easier and I love multi-family right. I think that the market rate rental product that you can buy in a B class product that’s on the market is really one of the better assets.

And I love that, but I always said, if I went back to do it again, that I would do self storage. It always seemed like it was such a small niche to get into though. And you say that with the numbers 40,000, 44,000 in the country, and 40,000 of them are mom and

Paul: pop. Yeah, that’s in the mobile home park space in self storage.

There are 53,000 facilities and that’s the same as all the [00:14:00] Starbucks McDonald’s and subway restaurants combined in the us. So it’s a, it’s quite a growing, it’s quite a larger niche than people would have thought in the past. But there’s still a lot from the seventies and eighties. Even the nineties that are mom and pop,

Mike: It’s interesting as you say it, we said it in your bio that America’s attraction with stuff has caused that industry to just really exploded.

Yeah. Paul TOSA, the biggest shaping moment in your career.

Paul: Yeah, I think it’s. So I had about a million and a half dollars in my bank account when I sold my company in 97, at 33 years old, and exactly 10 years later, I had two and a half million dollars in debt. And I found myself really not even having any idea that we were about to fall down as a country.

Black hole called the great [00:15:00] financial crisis. And so I went through a very significant process. My business partner quit about that time and he said, I’m going to give all the assets and the debt to you because I can’t afford to pay half this anymore. And we’re still friends today. He still works on our real estate team, but he just couldn’t afford to do it.

And I understood that I was so optimistic, I said are you sure you want to give up all this up? And again, not knowing that 2008 was about to hit us as hard as it was, but to make a long story short, we, as a family, decided to give our way out of debt. We thought it was a radical idea, but we thought how much worse can it get?

And we started giving generously to some nonprofits and things like that we really cared about. And within 13 months we were completely debt-free right in the very worst months of the great financial crisis,

Mike: Great great story for comeback. And just kinda can prove the point that anybody can come back [00:16:00] from any type of, two and a half million dollars in debt.

And now we’re back on the other side of it again, so right. There was a lot to talk about comeback there. So here’s something I want to ask. And I think our listeners may be thinking about this is your podcast on how to lose money. Tell us about that. How’d you pick that name? What’s that?

Paul: Yeah.

So for years I would go to conferences of all types, both in my personal life and professionally. And I would see the speakers telling about their great success stories on stage. But when we broke out into round table, and like little groups, the guys, typically guys at my table would just be slumped over.

And they would be like, oh, I’ll never be that good. I’ll never have success like that guy. I’ll never have the breaks and the money and the connections. And they just seem really discouraged. And I thought I went to this one conference seven years in a row, and I would writing questions tell us about your [00:17:00] failures, your pain, your defeats.

And they never would answer that. Ever. Somebody actually got up and S sorta challenged this. The conference leaders one year and they refuse to answer that. And I thought what a huge disservice to people. When I found out Mike is when I became one of those speakers myself, I realized that those other speakers had the same fears, doubts, pain, losses, everything else that everybody else had, but they had overcome them.

And I thought, wouldn’t it be amazing if they would just tell their stories of loss and pain along the way to encourage people and give them hope. So we started the podcast, how to lose money about three and a half years ago to teach people that there is hope and that everybody has had pain along their journey.

Mike: It’s interesting. Something that came to mind while you were talking about that as vulnerability, right? It’s hard for people to be vulnerable and to, look bad in front of somebody [00:18:00] else. Why do I want to tell you about my failure? You really want to learn about my success, don’t you?

Yeah, but isn’t it true that a lot of times our failure or failures, the lessons we’ve learned along the way, cause us to be more successful.

Paul: Yeah, it’s so true. And I think it’s easier to avoid someone else’s failure than it is to replicate their success many times. I can’t go out and create another Amazon, but I can look at what Jeff Bezos did wrong and say, okay, I’m not going to do.

Mike: Yeah, that’s interesting. A lot is investors in there. The marketplace are saying that they’re making a switch to self storage and to mobile home parks because of a double digit returns. Aye. Are you seeing that? Are you seeing that transition in investors? Even some of our peers coming out of multifamily or out of single family going into that and what type of returns can [00:19:00] investors find?

Paul: It’s funny after writing the perfect investment and, having that book sell quite a bit and being on, dozens and dozens of podcasts about that topic. When we decided to expand into self storage and mobile home parks, I was really nervous. So in my contact management system, I actually set up a field, basically checking a box.

Was this investor open to hearing about self storage and mobile home parks or were they hostile? And I thought, half the people might be open half, might be really hostile or angry or whatever. And 100% of people I talked to, at least to my knowledge were. And interested and we found out later eager and they weren’t set on multifamily.

Like I thought they would be. And yeah the difference is this Mike, 93% of multifamily above 50 units are owned by corporations who have largely run the value out of these [00:20:00] properties. And so it’s really hard to find a value add right now. Now I think there’s a time coming really soon. With the likely economic downturn when there’s going to be some deals to be had in multifamily again, but self storage and mobile home parks have a lot of value add opportunity.

Which I thought sounded laughable before I looked into it, close more closely value, add in a self storage. I Isn’t it four pieces of metal and some rabbits and a piece of concrete and the door. There are value adds and there are a lot of them. And we had no idea until we really dove deeper into that.

And I think a lot of investors have been happy with that. And when you buy from a mom and pop, you’ve got a great chance of getting double digit returns.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah, that’s interesting. And I think that it causes an investor maybe to take a different look at the industry and the different spaces within the industry.

We talk about multifamily, investors can make a fortune in small multifamily units or big [00:21:00] multifamily units, but I like what you said too, because I think this is really true right now. Is that right? The value add product. There’s not a lot of them out there and cause there’s, I think there’s a lot of buyers in the marketplace looking for that product because that’s been the big cliche, the big thing to go after. Let me let me ask you this, for real estate investors, should they. Focused and all their assets in real estate or their other product or asset classes that they could diversify in, or you even suggest that they should diversify into,

Paul: I was talking to Russell Gray yesterday from the real estate guys radio, and he was talking about, he had a strategy that I hadn’t really thought of.

He was saying, okay, what if you could find a really stable, real estate asset? Like a Delaware statutory trust that pays predictable stable returns. And that’s a certain type of structure for ownership of a stable real estate asset. And let’s say [00:22:00] that payday 6% return, he said, now let’s say you had equity, lazy equity sitting around either in one of those Morgan Stanley accounts where you can borrow against them for 2% interest.

Or maybe a home equity line, in your home at, let’s say 4% interest rate. He said, let’s say you could actually borrow at 4%. He said, then reinvest two thirds of it at 6%. And at 6% return, he said the 6% stabilized return when you’re using two thirds of it. And again, maybe that’s not the exact number.

Maybe it was three quarters, but you get the point. That will pay all the interest on the loan, leaving you one third and he called it insurance. Equity now, what would he do with that? He said based on the massive printing of money and the [00:23:00] likely hyperinflation that we’re going to see at some point he would take that one third or whatever was left and he would invest it in an insurance policy.

And he called that. He was saying that will be precious metals for him. He would invest in precious metals. And use that as the insurance, it doesn’t pay any dividends, but your dividends are already covered by the break, even on the other part of it.

Mike: Yeah, sure. That’s interesting. What a concept that would be.

So you’ve been in real estate a long time. We see, I think both of us have seen the rules of the game change along the way in some different aspects. Have you seen anything recently in the last few years where the rules of the game have really changed and have caused you to really think things and how your strategy is going to work around those?

Paul: Yeah. I think as syndication has become more famous and more popular we’ve seen that a lot of people are jumping in and, Mike, I [00:24:00] never would have any, would have had any idea. How hard it was to find a best in class operator, a best-in-class investment. Unless I had worked so hard to do it myself.

When we jumped into self storage and mobile home parks, we decided we did not want to be an operator. We decided it was very late in the game. We thought, who would we invest with? We would invest with somebody who’d been doing it since before 2000. Same asset class, hopefully the same team of people.

And so we began to look for those operators and we were hoping to find maybe a dozen that we could invest with. And maybe we would choose, five or six in any given year to invest with them. Mike, believe it or not in two and a half years, we’ve only found four operators that we’ve been willing to invest with.

And we’re looking really hard all the time. My business partner is driving. As we speak to a neighboring state to look at an asset that’s [00:25:00] being run by a company worth considering investing with. And but we work really hard on due diligence. And so I think what I would say is there are so many people in the game now.

So many people that do good marketing, so many people. Seem to be great operators, but time hasn’t tested them yet. And a rising tide made all boats rise in the last 12 years. We’re going to see what happens when there’s a glitch like there is now. And I think that I think people just really need to be very careful with their due diligence.

Really know who you’re investing with. And that’s the change that we’ve seen in this. Just so many potential places to invest. So few that we absolutely love. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike: So you said an interesting word. You said syndication is easier today. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think you, maybe it’s more people are doing it because the restrictions from the sec have been.

Loosened up a little bit, right? [00:26:00] They’ve pulled back a little bit. You’ve got crowdfunding. You’ve got all these platforms today that we didn’t have when we first got in the syndication business. So that makes a difference. Yeah, but here’s what I you’ve alluded a couple of times too.

The conversation around this, market’s going to shift, we’re going to see some challenges come up. I’m guessing as a result of COVID and this pandemic that we’re going through as a country here, what do you see coming? What do you see for the future in the next year? Coming months.

Paul: So I, I really don’t know.

I will say one thing everybody can be sure of is that we don’t know the future. We don’t know what’s going to happen. I think that there’s a chance we’re going to have a V shape, a recovery or a Nike reverse Nike check, mark type recovery, or maybe. W shaped or U shaped or worse of all the L-shaped recovery, which is what Japan had from the nineties for, a couple of decades, which is basically very slow.

If [00:27:00] any recovery I don’t know which of those four or five different options we’re going to face. I do think that based on the record amount of unemployed, The fact that up to 40% of those people will never return to their job. The fact that we have record printing of money, the fact that we have civil unrest, this is all it seems unprecedented, certainly all at once it is.

And so I think there’s got to be an impact. I don’t think it’s going to be small. And I don’t think we’re going to have a quick recovery. So what to do well as real estate investors, I’d say learn really well. This is a time it’s probably a little on the late side, but the best time to plant a tree is 10 years ago.

The best time for you to get educated is right now. Get a coach, get a mentor. Get your team together assemble your tribe. And when I say that, not only your team, but the people who will follow you and invest with you when the [00:28:00] time is right learn, take the time to learn the niche you want to be in and be ready for some deals to come down the pike in 2021 and 22, if you look back at 2008, the very best deals didn’t.

Till fall of 2011 and spring of 2012. So you’ve got the time, but you need to take action right now. Yep,

Mike: absolutely. I think that’s a great a great segue. It has, we’re coming to an end here, but I know that you like to give back. And one of the things is you’ve got a couple things that are real near and dear to your heart.

You want to talk about a cause that you like to give them.

Paul: Absolutely. So Mike, did you know that if you took the record profits, not the average, the record profits of apple, Nike, Starbucks, and general motors added those together and doubled that number? That’d be the approximate [00:29:00] annual revenues generated by human trafficking every year.

Wow. It’s a horrible thing. I’d like to believe if I was alive. 150 years ago, I would have been fighting against slavery as an abolitionist. And if I would have been an adult in the 1960s, I like to believe I’d be fighting for civil rights. This is a civil war. This is slavery and it’s happening right under our noses.

And the impact on the individuals is staggering. And I could get into that, but it’s just almost too gruesome to even talk about online. So I will say that this is something, this is a cause worth fighting. It’s a worth promoting. That people would know about this. And so one of my big why’s is to let people know about the horror of this and encourage them to get involved, to make a difference.

Mike: Wow. Interesting. And people can, maybe if they have a heart after that, or an interest in that they [00:30:00] can contact you and get some information from you and maybe be a donor.

Paul: They could I have a little non-profit that does stuff like that, but I would encourage people not to donate to us or even contact us necessarily.

They should go straight to Exodus cry. That’s E X O D. C R Y Exodus They’re doing a fantastic job. Basically getting the word out, generating funds to stop this great evil.

Mike: Nice. Thanks for that, Paul. Hey, what’s what’s next for you over the next couple three, four or five years.

Paul: One thing that’s on the radar right now is the fact that there are a lot of 10 31 exchange change investors.

We have to say no to every year. And I, after saying no to a $2.1 million, one last year, in addition to a whole lot of others, we thought, we got to do something about this. So we began researching and we found out that a Delaware statutory trust allows people to. [00:31:00] Be passive investors in to a syndication, but still maintain their 10 31 exchange on the way in and the way out if they choose.

And so we were quite excited about this. We found out that there were some big disadvantages to it and we tried to address those. And so we’ve put together a Delaware statutory trust. We’re doing our first self storage deal in one now. And we plan to continue to do those, to allow 10 31 exchange investors.

To enjoy these benefits for future years.

Mike: Wow. That’s interesting. Very nice. One last question. What what advice would you give a new investor? A lot of our listeners on my show are new investors, people that are just starting to get involved or been involved for a while and making a transition up into another asset class.

What advice would you give a new advisor?

Paul: So if they were a bank brand new investor and they want to they want to get the benefits, the income, the growth, and the tax [00:32:00] write-offs of real estate. But they don’t want to get their hands dirty. I would say invest passively. Don’t take it. Don’t take the process passively though.

Take the time to really get to know the sponsor, investigate them. Do criminal checks, background checks, fly that to meet them in person, go to look at some of their assets, just go through their household and upfront because you don’t want to be living with the household for the next 10 years. If you make a bad decision.

Now if you want to be actively involved and you’re brand new, and let’s say you don’t have a lot of money to spare for this. You might want to consider doing subject two deals. And these would be things like lease option sandwiches. Basically it means taking over buying the property subject to.

The existing mortgage. And that means keeping the the sellers name on the mortgage. You paying that mortgage for them. Yeah. [00:33:00] You put the property into a land trust, and basically then you control that asset and you can put it in your portfolio with virtually no money out of pocket. At all. And if you could do five or 10 of these, and then, you’re getting three paydays, number one, you’re getting a deposit from your renter on the other end.

Number two, you’re getting monthly income as they pay you more than you pay on the mortgage. And number three, that big payday comes at the end. If they close on the property, the tenant buyer closes on it as a lease option buyer. Then you’re going to get the difference between the pay down mortgage and what they pay you at closing, which can be tens of thousands of dollars.

Mike: Nice. Nice. Thanks for that. Thanks for that, Paul. I really have enjoyed this. It’s hard to believe that 40 minutes has blown by already, I think that we all get to learn some things from these podcasts and in a lot of cases, a lot more than normal. But I want to really thank you for being on today.

I’m sure my listeners have [00:34:00] learned a lot. If my listeners wanted to get ahold of you or talk to you about anything we’ve chatted about how could they go and do that?

Paul: The easiest way would just be visit our website. It’s Wellings that’s w E L I N G. C a P I T a L Wellings

Mike: Okay, great. Yeah, we’ll have your information on our website too. Paul. Thank you very much. Maybe we can have you back again as things start to free up from this COVID epidemic and start to maybe get back to what the world would perceive as new normal,

Paul: right? Yeah, absolutely. I’d be really honored.

Thanks, Mike.

Mike: Yeah. Thank you, Paul. Have a great day, everybody. And. We’ll look forward to talking to you again next week.

Kristen: Thank you, Mike, and thank you for joining us for another great episode of Insider Secrets. As always, Insider Secrets is brought to you by My Core Intentions. [00:35:00] Join us on social media and visit where you can get expert coaching on all things, multifamily investing in property management.

We’re looking forward to having you back again next week for more Insider Secrets.